So.... I'm Adopted Podcast!
This podcast creates a space for genuine conversations about adoption, where emotions are acknowledged, journeys are reconciled, and a healthy acceptance of truths is fostered. Delve into the impact of adoption on all parties involved, gaining insights from adoptees, adoptive parents, biological parents, as well as professional psychologists and social workers. Explore the realities, reconciliation processes, and ongoing dynamics of adoption.
So.... I'm Adopted Podcast!
Adoption, Identity, And Finding Your People
What happens when the truth comes early, a storm knocks out the island’s power, and a single name spoken in a courtroom echoes for decades? We bring you Jennifer’s journey—from being adopted at two days old on Guam to leading an NYC adoption agency for older youth—and the winding path between belonging, uncertainty, and grace.
We talk about the power of honest language in childhood and how it turns “You’re adopted” from a weapon into a badge of identity. Jennifer shares how race and visibility shaped daily life when strangers questioned family resemblance, and why being the only sibling placed for adoption can hold both gratitude and unanswered why. A typhoon delayed the phone lines, a JAG attorney steadied the process, and years later a letter reopened a closed adoption with care, caution, and compassion. The first reunion happened at a family gathering; the next brought both families together, proof that love can hold complexity without breaking.
We go deep on adoption‑competent therapy—why standard counseling often stalls with adoptee‑specific trauma, ambiguous loss, and reunion dynamics, and how specialized clinicians change the work. Jennifer traces her calling to public service, moving to New York, and stepping into leadership at an agency that finds families for teens in foster care. The job brings vicarious trauma, but also purpose: a daily commitment to permanence, safety, and dignity for youth who’ve been told they don’t matter.
If you’ve ever stared at a blank line on a birth certificate or felt the pull to find a missing piece of self, this conversation offers language, tools, and a little hope. Subscribe, share this episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review with the moment that stayed with you most. Your voice helps others find the support they deserve.
Music by Curtis Rodgers IG @itsjustcurtis
Produce and Edited by Lisa Sapp
Executive Producer Lisa Sapp
Executive Producer Johnnie Underwood
Tell us your story or leave a comment by following us on
IG soimadoptedpod
FB so.i'm adopted
Youtube SO...I'M ADOPTED
Email soimadopted@gmail.com
Welcome to the So I'm Adopted Podcast, where we talk everything adopted. This journey is not one we take alone. Together we grapple with raw emotions that surface from adoption stories. Want you to be comfortable enough to hear stick back and go with us on this journey as we die to adoption. All right, welcome, welcome, welcome to another episode of So I'm Adopted. I'm John.
SPEAKER_03:I'm Lisa.
SPEAKER_00:And we just want to thank you for investing some time with us today as we talk about non-traditional relationships. As always, we encourage you to hit that like and hit the share button just so that others can be empowered by these discussions, these rich discussions that we continue to have. And uh, I will tell you that this journey has been a very powerful one.
SPEAKER_03:It has. It truly has. I it has blown my mind based off of you know once we started.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, once we started, I was very hesitant, new, not new in my journey, but new in a different season of my journey.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and not really knowing how, not knowing if you know, I could even share the story. So now to be able to talk about it freely and have the support of you know the biological family, it just is a different dynamic. And there's still just some levels of safety, um, just to protect, you know, all parties involved, including myself, because even as we continue to talk and continue to grow on it, uh, there's levels of of trauma that are still being unpacked for me that I've suppressed over the years.
SPEAKER_03:Right, right. It definitely has been an eye-opening experience emotionally through the whole process, just the different layers. Just you and I are peeling back so many layers that, like you had mentioned, that we didn't really realize that it was suppressed. So, yeah, this definitely has been a journey.
SPEAKER_00:I truly believe that when you when you talk about something, you take away the taboo from it. And being able to talk about it is therapeutic, but not everyone has the courage, and it definitely takes courage, it's a strength in being able to talk about things that you don't know, and then those innermost parts that shape how you view life. Um, and I think that's one of the things that has been very common amongst all of our guests, and even our stories that our adoption stories impact how we do life, how we interact with others, how we parent, how we do marriage, how we work, just all of those embodied with it. All relationships, all relationships. So, as we do always, we're gonna start off with a famous adoptee story. So, Lisa, who you got today?
SPEAKER_03:So, what I have today is based on our conversation later on. Okay, I pick Angelia Jolie, okay, all right, who has adopted many children and she has her own as well, but she's adopted children internationally. She's adopted one from Cambodia, Ethiopia, and Vietnam. And did you know a little known fact that the one that she adopted from Ethiopia had it goes to Spelman?
SPEAKER_00:Really?
SPEAKER_03:And she's an AKA. Okay, all right, all right, okay, big up, big up to the divine nine, the aka aka and hbcu.
SPEAKER_00:That's awesome. Good. So that's good because she allowed them to be themselves to experience the culture, to experience the culture, and I think that that's a discussion in itself that when you have adopt adoptee or you have the parents trying to figure out that balance, do we completely engulf, especially when you have international adoption?
SPEAKER_03:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:What culture do you expose and then what do you allow them still to have? And that may create a battle in itself of that identity piece. Yeah, you know, we we're all searching for something, so something that that we can relate to. That's powerful. I'm glad that you shared that part of it. That's real good. So mine is is very relevant, and I didn't know this, right? Okay, so the person that I have today is Walt Disney. Did you know that Walt Disney had an adopted child?
SPEAKER_03:I did not know that.
SPEAKER_00:I had no clue.
SPEAKER_03:I did not know that.
SPEAKER_00:He does have a biological okay, but he also he and his wife they adopted a child. Wow, three years' difference, really, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Who knew?
SPEAKER_00:I would never know.
SPEAKER_03:Can you imagine that child being adopted by Disney?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's himself, but think about it. Back then, even though they still had the financial piece, Disney wasn't what we know today of Disney.
SPEAKER_03:That's true.
SPEAKER_00:And then you think about it, with all that he did, how present was he? And I'm not saying he, you know, was or wasn't. Right, right, right. So, you know, a lot of times we look at this lens and we have the mindset of, oh, I wish that I was in that seat, but there are sacrifices that have to be made as well.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00:So it was just interesting, especially because Walt has this affinity for for children and making sure he brings joy to their life.
SPEAKER_03:That's that's a good subject to deep dive into down the line. Okay, you know how and just using famous people as a as an easy example, because yeah, you can adopt somebody, but are you present in that child's life? Because for financial reasons, you're able to do it. But at the end of the day, is it good for the child? That's because you have money, but are you investing your time, your love, you know, there emotionally for them?
SPEAKER_00:So it goes back to your motivation for the adoption.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:You know, and some people it may start off as, oh, I want to do this, I want to help. But once you get into it, you know, you inherit a lot of different things that you may not be prepared for. Exactly. So again, again, hit the like, hit the share button, let somebody know if you are uh inspired by these stories. Let us know. I will tell you that that helps us continue to go down this road. We've come in contact with people that have reached out to us and they've said, listen, what you're doing matters. Um, I had an individual who works in the school system, he's not adopted, but he said that he comes in contact with children or students, since they children. Well, they're there are children, students who have non-traditional families, that he's used some of the language that we've discussed to be able to help them in their early-on trauma and journeys. So they don't have necessarily the adoption from the legal standpoint, but you have the mixed household and just that non-traditional aspect. So that's our famous adoptee segment. So now let's let's jump into our guest for the day. I am super excited about this one, as as I always am. But this one is is very unique just in how the discussion came about, and she's an alumni of I would say the the greatest HBCU. Absolutely, you know, people will argue me down, but Hampton University, and she is a quintessence three part of my class as well. So let you read that. All right, my eyes are paid right now. I can't see. I have glaucoma, I accept it for what it is. Legally, I do it. I bet glaucoma is bad.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00:No, it's not a joke.
SPEAKER_03:I know I'm serious. That's not good.
SPEAKER_00:I know they probably will take my license in about 10-15 years.
SPEAKER_03:No, that's not funny.
SPEAKER_00:No, I'm not joking, I'm serious. That's a reality I've had to accept. I said when you talk about things, you take the taboo away. I wrestle with that all the time. That's my truth.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I'm sorry because you know you're always a jokester, so I can never I can never tell when you're telling the truth.
SPEAKER_00:This that's the truth. I got drops and everything.
SPEAKER_03:Oh wow, yeah. You like drop Miss Daisy.
SPEAKER_00:I see that that was the bit much. That's it's okay. Understand. You can start and I'm gonna finish it.
SPEAKER_03:I know you will. So we do have a our guest today. Her name is Jennifer Pinder.
SPEAKER_00:Pender, yes.
SPEAKER_03:Pender, Pinder, is a proud adoptee, a Hampton University grad, adopted at two days old. She grew up in a loving family with an older brother and two amazing parents. Uh, her parents were born and raised in Maryland. Her dad's career as an officer in the Air Force took the family to several places. Jennifer was born in Guam and raised in Louisiana, Nebraska, California, Washington State, and Illinois. Wow. Hey Well culture. Well grass underneath her feet. She currently resides in New York City, where she leads an adoption agency for older youth in foster care.
SPEAKER_00:That's a huge discussion, right there.
SPEAKER_03:That's a huge discussion. Yeah. So without further ado, let's go ahead and bring Miss Jennifer on. Hey, hey.
SPEAKER_01:Hello. Hi, Lisa. Hi, John. Hi, how are you? Good. You all have me going through a range of emotions backstage.
SPEAKER_00:I'm curious to know what give me at least two of them.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, well, sorry about your glaucoma. Seriously. My grandmother has it, my mom has it, and they're doing fine, but they're still driving. So there's hope. So that Lisa, I thought he was joking too. So that's why I was like, uh-oh. So I had to pull it back. Right. So I was on that journey with you, Lisa. And then the adoption piece, like pretty much everything you said about adoption, I was very much the amen choir over here in the back. So that's where I was.
SPEAKER_00:Got it. Well, hey, thank you so much for accepting this invitation to just come on our podcast and talk. And before we even jump into your story, let's share with the viewers because again, this is so organic how it took place and how we got to this point. Yep. Share how this moment came to be. I'll let you share.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So my perspective is that, you know, having gone to Hampton, there are some people you have, you know, close proximity to, you have a lot of classes with. That wasn't the case for Johnny and I. It's like we knew each other in passing, but we weren't, we weren't even friends on social media. We would, I would pass by him, he and his wife at Homecoming, High and Bye. And then last homecoming. So last year, it, you know, this moment created itself for Johnny and I to just like chat it up a little bit. And so we, like I said, didn't have a chance to get to know each other. Within the first minute of our conversation, discovered that we were both adopted and kind of just like mind-blown, right? So I don't believe the coincidences. I, you know, it happened for a reason, and here we are, and I'm just really grateful.
SPEAKER_03:I'm grateful for it too, for sure.
SPEAKER_00:And it was so it was so powerful because you shared with me, you know, a little bit about your story, but then the conferences, because I had no, we had no clue of just the resources that were out there. It was just like, wow, I was supposed to be and I was supposed to talk to her, and I was so geeky, and just again, as you find others that share that commonality, there's an excitement, but you just you're cool as the other side of the pillow, you're always just cool. It takes one to know one, but it is just like wow, that that's a commonality. And then it's like, well, how can I just learn more and get empowered and what connections and networking when you shared about the conference? I felt so inadequate from the standpoint of just not knowing you don't know what you don't know, right? And our schedules didn't allow us to participate in it with me transitioning, you know, out of state and a lot of other things. But that is one of the things that we're going to start participating in. So yeah, so let's let's jump right in. Anything you want to say, say, Lucy?
SPEAKER_03:No, other than when did you know that you were adopted? We did this today.
SPEAKER_01:Let's get into it. Let's go. So I do not remember not knowing, right? And I but I do have this vivid memory, which now in hindsight, I I don't know if it actually happened, but I have a vivid memory of my mom brushing my hair and explaining to me my biological mother and being adopted. And because that memory was fuzzy, I actually called my parents this morning. Thank god my parents are still alive, lucid, and can remember memories from literally 50 years ago, right? So they said that first they had consulted experts and said, when should we tell her? And they said, as soon as she starts asking questions, like there's no need to just like you know, jump out there and and drop it on her. So being the nosy child that I am, I started asking questions pretty early. And my mom said to me, Now I will typically I don't say adoptive mom, but I'll say it in this space because I know it could be hard to keep track for you to use your language okay, all right, if you're okay with that. So my mom said, well, both of my parents said that when I was three. Now, why would I even ask this question? I saw this pregnant woman and I said, Hey mom, was I in your belly like that? Right? So it's kind of like I had that intuition of knowing that maybe I wasn't. And my mom, because they had done that work of consulting experts and trying to understand when would be what's the right language, when would be the right time. My mom said, nope, you weren't. You were in another woman's belly, and she loved you, we loved you, and we're your parents, right? And so I was like, all right, cool. Kind of just walked off. And the thing is that it's been an ongoing conversation since then. And my parents all at some point said, anytime you want to know more, just let us know. Now, and my parents are, you know, they're very loving, they're deeply compassionate, and they are transparent anyway. So outside of the context of my adoption, they've always been transparent. That's just who they are at the core. And for me, it's just, you know, an illustration of how deeply they love, because you have to, you have to really love somebody to be able to be that honest with them. And so, you know, what they said they really I really started to dig into the questions when I was 16. But they were like, they also shared with me like growing up, and I remember this, like I remember just like feeling really comfortable with that truth because my parents shared it with me so early and they were comfortable with it. I have an older brother who's actually their biological child, and that is my we are best friends, that's the homie. And my my my parents always told a story of how when they came to get me from the hospital, that he was holding my brother was holding me, and he was like, This is the little sister I always wanted. Now, my brother tries to deny it, but we all know it happens, we have witnesses. But back to growing up is that there was one incident that my parents just shared with me that I don't remember. But a kid across the street, so I was probably five or six at the time, her mom had told her I was adopted, and she thought that she would weaponize that information against me. Right, and she's like, Well, that's why you're adopted. And apparently I read her for filth and made her feel so bad about now. She felt, and then to the point where she felt left out, she was like, Well, I'm gonna be adopted because I told her how special it is to be adopted, and you know, and that again that goes back to like how comfortable my parents made sure with this truth.
SPEAKER_00:They empowered you, really.
SPEAKER_01:They empowered me 100%. And another thing that's it's important, and it's part of my story, and I know will continue to be, is that, and this is not a complaint, this is just I am it's a matter of the fact, I don't look like my family, right? And so it's another reason why it was so important that they gave me that truth and made me feel so comfortable with it is because you know, there's a unfortunately there's a subset of people who will put you in a position where they try to make you feel obligated to explain a situation, right? So if I walk into a room with my brother, my mom and dad, there are gonna be some people who are like, okay, so what's what's going on over here? Right. And since childhood, that's been the case. And for background, my both of my parents are black Americans, and they my dad was in the Air Force and he was stationed on Guam when I was placed for adoption. So I am Pacific Islander and Black. So I'm most people think I look ambiguous, the rest of my family is not. But I that I am not uncomfortable about that because again, because of my parents, there would be times where my mom and I would be, you know, at a cash register checking out, and and the cashier would be like, That's that's your mom. That's your so there's this all this scrutiny that was always happening, and then it would always go to but so I'm 5'10, my mom's five three, and they would get to well, but she's so tall. And and my mom would say, But my son is six four, and my mom gave birth to my brother, so it's like she can make tall babies, exactly.
SPEAKER_04:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:So that was a really long answer to when did I find out I was adopted.
SPEAKER_00:So two two things. The first one, I think that them empowering you at such an early age not only prepared you for the discussions and the scrutiny, as you were saying, but it also shaped just knowing your personality, it shaped who you are and your ability to, as the young folks say, stand on business, so to say, right, right, you know, and that is, I think a lot of times we were talking about motivation for adoption, but parents aren't prepared, so kudos to them for doing the work, the research. When should we tell? Because you have a lot of people that are threatened by that taboo, and they don't want to was my mother, right? They don't want to talk about it. My mom talk about it with me, but she didn't want me to uncover, you know, the other piece. And parallel to you, my dad was five, too. So they were looking, they were looking at me like where you get your height from who this lady fool. That ain't that ain't your daddy, and you know, so it grew up. I grew up with the running joke of it, and it didn't bother me because, like you, I always knew she said she found out later in life moments during my high school years where my brother, who's older than me, three years older than me, he was adopted as well.
SPEAKER_03:And in my household, my mom did everything with school with us. She was a PTA president, she was a BAM mom, you name it. So the only person they saw was her light skin, freckles, my brother was light skinned, and later on we found that he was biracial. So that's why now my dad, who's dark skinned, has light brown eyes, I have light brown eyes, but they never really saw my dad because he never really was not involved in any school activities, unless you lived in my neighborhood. Did you not know who my dad was? Sure. So when I went to high school, I have an unusual last name, and they were like, Are you Howard's sister? And I was like, Yeah, he's they the first thing they said was, Oh, are you adopted? They're like, No, I'm not adopted. So I go home, tell my mom the whole entire scenario, and she's like, and so I'm cooking this for dinner, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yep, on to the next thing.
SPEAKER_03:He went on to something else. She never really, and that was, you know, I didn't think anything of it until you know later on when I and then all those different scenarios that took place over my life came rushing in it. Right, oh, oh, oh, you know, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I wish and I have to, yeah, and I think our parents are always trying to protect us, right? But it just looks different. They I feel like they're, you know, I trust that they're doing what they think is the best thing to do in that situation.
SPEAKER_00:And they can only use the tools that are in their toolbox. That's the reason. Right. Um my parents being from Alabama, they didn't know. They just happened to be had come to Virginia, and my dad was military, that's how they got to Virginia. So the agency they were working with, they had an amazing social worker that walked them through the process. I think thereafter it was, okay, here you go, good luck. No, just you know, just what it was at that time. Um so let me ask this question because you brought up age 16. What was significant at 16 where it made that turn?
SPEAKER_01:I you know, I think it was probably a number of things. It was you know, coming of age and just self-discovery and like all the other different categories, and just like trying to fill all the boxes. And the other thing is that you know, I always longed to know who my birth mother was, right? And so I think just as I got older, it's like, and I could even like I could I could feel her presence. It's like I know she's out here somewhere. And I knew when I was born, she already had my older sister. And so when I was born, my my parents said, Well, is she okay? Like, does she need a home? And they said, No, birth mom's gonna keep older sis, she'll place Jennifer for adoption. So I think that's that's what it was, the identity piece that you referenced, and really wanting to really understand myself on a deeper level. And the other thing is that I always knew her name. So, you know, every jurisdiction is different. So I had, and I don't know what was that, because there were a lot of other wonky things that happened in terms of the legal proceedings with my adoption, but I always had two birth certificates. So I had one with so I had birth mom's name was on it, and then I had the new one that they administered, which had both of my parents' names on it once I was adopted. So the interesting thing is that the the original birth certificate that had birth mom's name on it, where where it says father, it was blank. And I remember seeing that as a child and thinking, oh, he probably doesn't know that I exist. I don't know why, except for God, why would that even pop up in my mind as a youngster until I found out that that is actually the case? Like he never knew she was pregnant, he doesn't know I exist. That's why the name is blank, right? And so I just feel like, you know, God has always had his hands in this whole situation because with my dad being in the Air Force, they were stationed in Maine when my brother was born, and then got papers to literally the other side of the world to go to Guam when, and my mom won't mind me sharing this, they always wanted to have two kids. Mom had a miscarriage, wasn't able to conceive, and said yes, they absolutely want to adopt. Like, what are the odds that they would end up in this tiny island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean where this woman is pregnant with a child with plans to place that child for adoption? So it's just like you know, seeing God's hand throughout all of this has especially been really powerful too, because there's just no other explanation as to how everything has played out.
SPEAKER_03:So go ahead. I have two questions. One first one is is that the name your your birth mother gave you is Jennifer? You know, I don't know that.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03:Only reason I've wondered it and I haven't asked it yet.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know yet.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, and then my other question is how do you feel? Because I know how I felt that your mother kept her sister and then placed you for adoption. Because I have my own feelings about that, right?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'll tell you, I think what helped my shape my opinion is the way that you know I was a traditional closed adoption, so my parents had little to no information. They knew about older sis, and that's real that was really about it, right? But even with that, they would always honor and respect birth mom and say, look, she made a decision in order for you to have a better life. She did that because she cares about you. But I I I do wonder, so I always appreciated that, right? And and still believe that because I'm two of five, so I discovered she had three more after me, and I still was the only one that was placed.
SPEAKER_02:You right?
SPEAKER_01:Are we right? So I don't know why that is. I think it is peculiar. I think in adoptions it's typically the first or the last, right? Right?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but I I I feel that we were born for a specific reason, right? For our adoptive mothers. That's the only reason. Because if you for me, I have two older sisters and I have a younger brother, only one who was adopted. But because of who my adoptive mother was, it makes perfect sense to me. Right. What and I don't know her complete story, but what little bit I do know is that I was God sent for her. That's right. So you wasn't you wasn't meant, I always say I wasn't meant for that other life. I wasn't born for that. That's right. That was another life. I wasn't born for it. I couldn't, I couldn't, I don't think I could make it in that life that was my original what it would have been. So you wasn't meant to be that's right there with your mother, your biological mother. You are always meant for your adoptive mother. I believe that too. I believe that.
SPEAKER_00:So, and I'm glad you clarified that it was a closed adoption because the language you were using, it it I thought that they knew everything and that they had contact in the beginning. So that was going to be my question. So I'm glad that you clarified that it was a closed adoption. Because my uh my other question was you know, with it being on a military base, was the agency through the military or was it through the local assembly?
SPEAKER_01:Right. So I was because birth mom is a civilian, I was born in the civilian hospital, but because my dad was in the Air Force, they did have a military uh attorney. So they said they went to the Air Force first, or the Air Force sent them to the Navy, and so they had a JAG, so a judge, advocate general assigned to them who well, it worked out because one that meant that it was free, so they didn't have to pay for the attorney. And the attorney did walk with them through the entire process, which, you know, again, every jurisdiction is different, every adoption process is different. But we encountered some interesting hurdles because, well, for one, it started with there was a typhoon a couple of days before I was born. So they were waiting, you know, they had identified the birth mom as like, okay, you're you're gonna adopt this woman's child, right? And so, but I wasn't born yet. So they're waiting for the phone call. The typhoon hits, all the power on the island is out. So phones are down, power is out. And so my mom said that after the storm, either it was the phone guy or the cable guy, but she was like, Hey, I'm waiting for you to set up this phone line because I'm waiting for a really important phone. So got the phone line set up, got the call, and I don't know the timing between the call and going to, I guess it was the two days because they called when I was born, and my parents went two days after to the hospital with my brother and a friend, one of their Air Force friends. Now, my dad had the where because my dad is like the photographer of our family. He had the wherewithal to snap a photo as my mom, my brother, and their friend were walking to into the hospital. Now, to any, to the untrained eye, it seemed like just like a very random photo. But for me, it's like the most favorite picture of my life because it's like right before my life is about to change because they're walking in, about to come and meet me for the first time. So that was the military's involvement. And my parents told me that they also had to pay for my stay in the hospital, which I think they said was$8.45 or something like this. So that was a level of their responsibility. But yeah, they didn't have any information, completely closed and traditional. They think they may have seen her in the hallway leaving as they were coming in, but there's kind of no way of knowing. But even though it was closed, birth mom did end up finding me. Oh, she found you found me. Now I have been looking for her because I had her name. Okay. And even my dad was helping me find her, and we kind of had this little investigative team where it's like, okay, I found this phone number. Did anybody pick up? So he and I were kind of tag teaming, and we didn't find anything. And I think it just wasn't time for that to happen yet, right? So we kind of put that investigation to bed. And then I was about 30 when my parents called me. And my parents always called me on speaker phone. So I didn't think anything of it. They were like, look, so we have something to tell you. I'm like, oh, okay, cool. I mean, that's just always their vibe. So they said, look, so we got a letter in the mail and essentially just indicated that my birth family was looking for me through him. And I've like kind of put the whole investigation away, gone on about my life. So I pretty much had a whole breakdown and I was like, I'm gonna call y'all back. Let me process this for a minute. So I called them back, and you know, they just continued in this vein of just honesty and transparency and love and said, look, we'll follow your lead. We could whatever you want to do, you want to put it down, give it time. Do you want to forget about whatever you say? So I said, you know, I want to pursue it if you all are okay with it. And what ended up happening is I could share this because like the statute of limitations is over, but I don't think it was illegal, but in those all those like court proceedings where things got walky here and there, it one thing that happened is like a law was passed when I was born, where all of a sudden they said three months later, they said to my parents, Oh, you're actually not the adoptive parents yet. You're now the foster parents of this baby, right? And then went back to birth mom and said, You still have a chance to claim her if you decide you don't want to place her for adoption anymore. Right.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, wow. And my parents are like, wait, hold on, wait a minute.
SPEAKER_01:And so thankfully they had the attorney to kind of, you know, again, guide them through this process because they were just throwing these, you know, monkey wretches that at them out of nowhere. And at birth mom, she stood firm. She said, nope, still gonna stick with placing her for adoption. And then the next proceeding at some point was birth terminating her parental rights. So saying, you know, I'm gonna give up parental rights. And at some point, I can't remember if it was the judge or one of the attorneys, but they said my dad's name. They said, Okay, so the baby's gonna go to Major James O'Pender, right? They're like, oh, wait, held her right, exactly. Everyone looked at her and said, You didn't hear that, right? Wink wink, because if she had confessed to hearing the name, we gotta start the whole, we gotta place the baby with a whole nother family. Right. So I am so grateful that she, you know, did not confess to hearing the name. So, like you said, Johnny, she held on to the name. Literally 30 years later, had now my younger sister Google my dad. Now I won't reveal the website it came up on because I don't want the people to get in trouble. Because they, where dad was listed, those people went above and beyond because you know they were asking for my dad's information. They said, you know, we don't give people's information out. But what they did do is tell my dad, these people are looking for you. And that was the link that got me connected. And there was no reason for us to believe that it wasn't who they said they were, right? But I did send my dad out to do some recon. So I was like, Can you just go ahead and give this work phone call? Right, that's right. That's right, and so it went from there, and so that's when I discovered, like I said, I had all together there are five of us. I was the only one that was placed, and that just that started our my our our I guess our reunification journey. How long ago was that? So this was like this has been 20 years now, okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so before we jump into that, you you you said it, and you've reinforced this idea that God has been throughout this whole journey, the trauma that could have been impact inflicted by adopted parents three months in now, you being pulled out, right? Having to go with a totally different family, right? The name being dropped. I mean, it's just so many indicators, right? It was ordained to be where you are.
SPEAKER_04:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:What month were you born? July. Okay. The reason I asked because the family that my biological mom was staying with, and I don't know when, prior to they, she wasn't with them when I was born because they had to go back to their country or native land because of a typhoon or storm. So that's why I was asking that's why I was like, Oh gosh, yeah, that would have been crazy. That would have been real crazy.
SPEAKER_03:Talk about the vine.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I was that's I don't know if you saw my face when you were talking about the storm.
SPEAKER_01:Wait a minute. You too? A typhoon?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, crazy. All right, so 16 years old, you're coming into your own, you're starting to ask questions. Talk to us about you're about to graduate from high school, you have this adoption banner that you're carrying, and then I say that in a proud manner. How do you know how do you make the decision to go to Hampton? And then how do you see, or are you even able to see how this how your adoption is impacting you?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Well, one, I went to Hampton for two reasons. One, had a couple of family members who attended. Two, put so my, you know, where we were stationed throughout the country, we lived in for the most part, really homogenous communities. And that's just a fancy way of saying we were almost always the only black family in the neighborhood. Right, right. And so that was challenging to navigate. And so I knew I was going to an HBCU. And so between and also my family, my parents, like I said, they're from Maryland. Most of my family's on the East Coast. I was always drawn to the East Coast. So it it it it was it was a no-brainer for me. And then I think your other question was like, how is my adoption?
SPEAKER_00:So did you do you think that there were certain decisions or certain choices that you made that were based on you having the family history that you had of being adopted and through this journey?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I didn't get the biological family history until many years later, until that was a good idea.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, no, not the biological piece, but just knowing that you were adopted. And the reason I'm asking because what we found out is that some of our guests, how they were wired and how they thought were based on them being from the non-traditional family, so just relationships with various peers or even interaction with various adults, some of them were very put the guard up, and then you had some very draw in. So just asking, looking, you know, did it how did it impact you?
SPEAKER_01:For sure. So I I'm what I I don't know if this is an official term, but I'm like an extroverted, introvert, introverted extrovert. So I am like, I'm for those who are close to me, I'm like, I'm deeply loving, I'm into it. But for those who don't know me, definitely walls up, walls, right? And I'm working on that in therapy, but I also growing up knew even though I'm surrounded by healthy long-term marriages, I never wanted to be married, and I didn't want to have kids. I was very clear on that. And people would be confused by that, and they would say, But you're so good with kids, you would be a great mother. And I never accepted that as a compliment because, like, one, you don't know that. Two, I just felt that, you know, I was being judged for making that decision. I'm just like, listen, I love being an auntie, I do love kids, but I always thought, now my thinking on this has changed, but I always thought that marriage was really only necessary if you were going to have a family. I don't believe that anymore. But because I knew I didn't want to have my own kids, I didn't see the need to be married. And part of the reason why I didn't want to have my own kids are it before I found, you know, I felt now I'm in touch with maternal bio side, maternal biological family. I wanted to be able to tell my kids their story. And it's like all of that was a blank slate for a long time. And so even now, paternal side is is blank. And another, and this is I know that the odds of this happening are low, but it happens, right? So it's like if I don't know my paternal side, I don't even want to run the risk of potentially dating a family member. I'll be honest with you. Like that was one of my genuine concerns. Understood. So it's like, let me just mitigate all these risks and I'm just not gonna have kids. And I still I don't regret that decision. And it wasn't made out of anger or sorrow. It was to me, it was made out of empowerment. It's like, this is the journey that I'm choosing. I'm gonna love all the kids in my life down, you know, but I'm just choosing not to have kids of my own. And it's also, I'm just now really starting, even after being therapy for 20 years, I'm just now really starting to peel back those layers of understanding myself and how adoption has implicated, like you said, the decisions that I'm making my life. And I'm just like, I don't want to push, I'm not ready to put some poor fella through me and my like unfinished business, right? Like I'm not, I feel like I, you know, and no one is like fully actualized before they get married. I know that's not realistic, but it's just I didn't feel comfortable entering into that type of relationship before I, you know, I started to feel more comfortable about making progress of understanding myself on that level.
SPEAKER_00:So one, I love the statement where you said you don't know that people saying that you would be a good mom. You don't, right? That's just you being blunt. I love it. Um, but the other piece is the the therapy piece, the counseling, because in our culture, in our community, is such a a negative stigmatism behind it. Yeah, I applaud the fact that you you did the the counseling. My question is, what prompted you as empowered where as you have been throughout your whole journey? What was the determining factor where you're like, you know what? Let me seek counseling with this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, it wasn't even directly related to being adopted. I'm sure it was indirectly in some way, right? But it I started in my like mid-20s, you know. You know, I joke about the quarter life crisis where it's like I would pay to be back in that quarter life crisis. I thought everything was so hard back then. But no, I I was like, I just need to talk to someone. And now I did find therapy and continue to find therapy very beneficial. But when I would talk to these like highly specialized or highly accomplished therapists with PhDs, even, when I would try to talk to them about adoption, they would be like a deer on headlights. And what I find, what I eventually learned is like, oh, because you have to be trained in that subject matter. And if and if you're not trained or prepared to deliver therapy and support to your patients through that lens, you're not going to be able to help them. And so it's that point where I found an additional therapist who is an adoption competent therapist. And it was like a completely different experience. It's like, oh, this is the specialized therapy that I need to attack these issues that are specific to my being adopted. So it's not at all to diminish the qualifications of the therapists that didn't have, you know, that that specialty, but it's just knowing that that is necessary in order for the therapy to really be impactful. How did you find this particular therapist? So again, I don't believe in coincidences. So I was working, I used to live in DC, so I was working in Maryland at the time. And I there's a small theater on my walk from the metro. And I noticed, I can't remember the name of it, but it was a show about a woman being adopted. So I googled it, I bought her book, I read her book, and it just so happens that she was placed for adoption by the adoption agency on that same street that I was working on.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And so once I researched that adoption agency, that's when I found out they had an adoption competent therapist. And that and Johnny, that's the adoption agency that hosts the annual conference I told you about, too.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, yeah, definitely would be making that a priority. That is so, and I'm gonna be honest, the counseling then therapy that I've been through has been for grief purposes. That's what me to start when uh my adopted mom passed. Yeah, and I lost my mind because I just everything that I had believed at that time was now being broken. And I think you know, you you consciously know people transition, but it that reality and it just I didn't respond well, yeah. And Janice was like, You gotta go talk to somebody. Yep, and I'm so thankful that I did, and then it became a part of well, if it helped me with this, it can help me with other areas. And if I wish I had known about this specific type of counseling, because I'm I'm be honest, I'm gonna seek it out for myself now.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I recommend it.
SPEAKER_00:Never too late, never, you know. It's just like when you take medicine, you take Alcocesa for this, but you take Advil for that. Right, that's right, it's pinpoint.
SPEAKER_02:Um, I had a I had a question and it it escaped me. That's the old age in me.
SPEAKER_00:So while while she's pondering the question, uh let's let's shift now because you you mentioned a little bit about you know, in the bio, we talked about what you do in your work. So talk to me about how you got to that point. Through your you said you move were in Maryland, but then you moved to DC and you've always knew, you know, I don't want to be married, I don't want kids. So knowing that, did that free up with regards to your journey with your career and your passion? How did that match up? Talk to us about that, right?
SPEAKER_01:So I did have I've had a love affair in New York City for a long time. And I got to a point where I thought, oh, I would love to live there, but I feel like it's too late. And then to your point, I was like, I don't like I don't have kids, I don't have a spouse, I can literally go wherever I want, right?
SPEAKER_04:Right, right.
SPEAKER_01:And I love being in the classroom, already had obtained a master's degree from University of Maryland, and I thought, well, why not incur some more debt and go get some more education? And so I found this executive master's program at NYU. And thankfully, my my DC job was extremely flexible and allowed me to telework full-time, 100%. And so that allowed, and they knew I was, you know, exploring and I wasn't coming back. And so they said, yeah, as long as we can keep you, then great, go to school. And it was part of that program at NYU, it was a cohort program, and it was an executive master's in public administration. And that one of the threats in the program is that they really encourage you to examine your personal life to see if it can inform your professional life. And so what my friends in the cohort kept reflecting back to me is that I should get into the field of adoption. And I said, absolutely not, it's too personal. Nope, can't do it, won't do it. And then I kept thinking about it, prayed on it. And then the moment that I accepted that as a possibility in my career, it was literally the next job posting I saw I was to lead this adoption agency in New York City. And I was just like, this, okay. Well, obviously I gotta respond to this. Right. And apply because I didn't, you know, especially the job market in New York City, it's like you gotta know somebody. I didn't know anyone at this agency, and that didn't matter. Because like they called me a week or two later, and now here I am five years later, and running it's called You Gotta Believe. So I've been running this organization. So it's, I mean, it's full circle. Um, it's the hardest thing I've ever done. And you know, the danger in acknowledging something as a divine assignment is that you know who's gonna be all up in your face. The devil's like, Oh, really? Are we are we living in our purpose? Oh, I got you.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. I was gonna say your steps have been ordered, and it's like parameters were put in place to guide you to make sure you landed where he meant for you to land. So I know that the challenges come, but the other side of it is you're equipped for it. The way that you are wired, the way that you think, the way that you respond, the way that you process, it was meant for you because you're able to handle it. He's not gonna put more on you than you can handle.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you both. I need that. You have no idea.
SPEAKER_00:Trust me, trust me. You you talk you're talking to individuals that I believe that's a commonality that we have that steps are ordered. Like you said, nothing happens by accident. Um, you you have situations where you you feel like, how did I get this opportunity? Well, because it's already offered for you. Yep, he had already said this is for my child, this is for mine. That's right. You know, and and we just have to be bold enough to walk in it. Yeah, that's right. Uh it's a confirmation for me that you know he's still he's no respecter person, he's the same yesterday, day and five.
SPEAKER_03:That's right. He orchestrates all things well, that's it. All things well.
SPEAKER_00:So the other so let's talk about now you in this field and how your personal experiences impact you because you're working with the older right individuals, you being adopted two days into this world, right? They may look at you like you don't know my story. That's right. You know, they may look at you like you got the the silver spoon, you had such, you know. So, how do a has that happened? And then how how do you equip yourself to not battle it, but to coexist in that space and in and help them?
SPEAKER_01:Well, so a couple of things. One, again, because you know, I'm raised by two parents who walk in humility and grace, like that's how I came into this role, right? It's like I know I'm not an expert, I know my experience was not these kids' experience. But to me, it's like because my parents, like my parents and I go back and forth with this, like they will never receive a thank you, right? Where I'm just like, oh, I'm just so grateful for you. They're like, But are you what are you talking about? We're grateful for you. So we do this. No, you are you're the greatest. No, you're right. And so I never like I I don't with that, like I never really have a place to put my gratitude. And so that's what this role allows me to do. Where, but I'll tell you that the the challenge is you talk about trauma, you know, there's a lot of vicarious trauma in this type of work where you see what what these kids go through who are in residential treatment centers, who have suffered complex trauma over the majority of their life, who have been told they're not worthy, who it's like, oof, they're but by the grace of God, go I, right? And it's so it's a that's a bit of a struggle because that's when I I it's really hard for me to accept like the gift. This is a gift, right? I don't have just any family. Like I know people have been adopted where their parents were not awesome. You know what I mean? There's some unfortunate stories, I'm sure you too know as well. And I'm not everyone who meets my parents, like they're it's not, and it's not even just my parents, it's my mom, my dad, my brother, my nephew, like literally everybody in my family on both sides, it's just like this isn't just any family. Like this, my family to me is perfection. And so when I see kids who don't have that, like it's it is, you know, it's so heartbreaking because they do not deserve what they're going through. But it also, you know, it strengthens my resolve when the job does get really hard. And I'm not another thing, is like I'm not on the front line, but I'm the one that's just like trying, I'm doing everything I can to support my team who is to make sure that they can really execute on the job and support these kids so they can get the families they deserve.
SPEAKER_00:So I we I definitely want to get into your work. I think that's a whole nother episode. This one right here is about just you in the journey. I'm wrestling back and forth because it's a lot of questions that I want to ask, but I'm gonna put those to the side because I I do want to publicly say it on camera. So you your hook line is synchronic with another episode.
SPEAKER_01:Right, I'm in, I'm committed. Whatever you want to leave.
SPEAKER_00:All right, so we will stay with your journey. But for those of you out that are watching, you gotta make sure that you come see the next episode because we're not gonna give you that part of the story. You have to come back.
SPEAKER_03:So, like, share, all the night above, all the all the above, so you can get the second part to this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but I remember my I was gonna say you remember your question. I remember my question. All right, let's go.
SPEAKER_03:So, with your biological family that you've known for 20-something years, where's your relationship today? And what type of a journey was that to get to it where it is today? Good or bad.
SPEAKER_01:I knew you were gonna ask that, Lisa. So no, I really appreciate this journey. I mean, that question because it's so important. And so back to when they found me, it just it added a whole nother layer of comp complication and just like complicated emotions. Like, even if even I knew that I this is what I wanted, I wanted to be in community with them. It's like, oh, this is this is really happening, right? This is happening. So from the connection started for me, you know, my dad did the recon to, you know, he determined, yes, these are the people we think they are. And so the next step was I called birth mom. Now, at this point, she was still on the island, which is the time difference is like 14 hours. So I'm like setting my clock for like 2 a.m. I was like, I feel like is this if it's 2 a.m. here, it's like 4 p.m. there, like if so, I'm trying to do the math. I call her at the right time. And so I call her. Oh, I'm sorry. Is there a language barrier? There's not. So Guam is a US territory. Okay. They speak English, and you're not the first person who's asked that. So good question. So she immediately, you know, it was an emotional call, but I will say I think she was experiencing guilt behind her decision, where I immediately let her know that there is no reason to feel any guilt at all. It's like I I always, my parents have always honored you for this decision. I don't want you to hold any guilt. I'm grateful to you, they're grateful to you. So from that point, she connected me with my biological siblings. And every I'm doing this because this is where everybody lives. Like everybody lived in different places throughout the country. And I eventually met all of them at some point. And then my one of my biological brothers started hosting a family reunion in the Pacific Northwest because they were only seeing each other for funerals, and so he wanted to create space for them to see each other more often outside of a funeral. And so the first one he organized was the first time I met BioMom in person. And now in hindsight, so I went by myself, and in hindsight, I'm thinking, oh, my parents probably were not excited about me going there by myself, but it it was fine because the following year, my biological brother threw another family reunion, and I brought my whole squad with me. So mom, dad, brother, sister-in-law, nephews. And it really just was like, I could not have imagined it going any better, just like watching my talk to my birth mom and my siblings, my biological siblings, thanking my parents for raising me, my birth mom and my mom. So that just I can to this day, it's hard for me to wrap my mind around how much love is there. But even with all that love and with people on both sides allowing me to be me and allowing me to go at the pace that I want to go at, I still struggle a lot with navigating and understanding my own emotions and processing everything and being given as much support as I've been given. So I can only imagine what everybody else goes through because I feel like it's been made easy for me in a sense. But I do also really struggle with not knowing who my biological father is. Where it's like, I'm not looking for a dad. I got a dad, he's the most amazing father. Um my mom's phenomenal. I'm looking for a piece of me that is missing, right? I am looking to understand myself better. And finding him is the only way I can sort of feel that missing piece of you know, my own path of self-discovery. So I kind of had to get to a point to, you know, allow myself to understand that there's a really big possibility that I will never know who this man is, right? And how do you wrestle with that, with also like, you know, holding on to a little bit of hope, like maybe I'll get enough information at some point. But that's part of like the really painful piece for me, but also it's a both and we're like really grateful about so many other parts of it, but you know, being patient with myself because it's there are a lot of complex emotions tied to it.
SPEAKER_03:I can I can understand where you're coming from. For me, I was I'm at a point. Well, since our last interview, it kind of changed, but I was at a point where if I find him or find out information about him, because allegedly he's deceased and he's been deceased for some time, but until I see the lituary, it's still alleged. So I was at a point where if I find him, great. If I don't, I'm okay. Because the most important thing to me was, and I mean, because it's a mother, I found my mother, and I know if I leave this earth and not know who my father is, I'm still gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:That's how I felt before we had our last interview, and now I'm kind of changing my tune. So again, I'm allowing God. If it's something that God is gonna allow me to allow to reveal to me, then I one way or the other. So that's where I am right now.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, first let me say this thank both of you for the the transparency because it is a very intimate uh subject, and I don't want to gloss over that, recognizing just the the sensitivity, you know, of that part of it. So thank you all. Thank both of you for being willing. And it is a it's a process and it's a journey. You know, again, it's these are these these commonalities we share. For me, the biological father, I've seen the obituary. He passed away, and you know, it's that from and now the other piece of it is I have his information, but biological family on his side, nothing, no response, no connection. You know, so it's like I got the information, but I it's nothing I can do with it right now. Some of it I'm very, very respectful, just of all other parties involved. I mean, I shared this with my biological brother when he and I first started communicating. I said, I recognize me coming back into the picture can be inconvenient for some people. And he kind of looked at me and I said, No, that's the truth. I said, have your normal playlist. I said, Me coming in is like a scratch on a CD. I'm there. I said, and that's just something that you have to address. And I'm okay with that. I recognize the role that I play. I said, You have some individuals that are so emotionally driven that they don't care who it impacts, but I know action has a reaction. And like we were saying earlier, there's so many other positives that God has given that I'm not I'm going to choose to focus on the healthy parts. And the bitter parts are still there. Not to say that they don't, but I'm not going to dwell in those. I visited recently, you know, a lot of times I'll hear something and then it'll remind me of the name, and I'll go look at the obituary and I'll say, Do we look alike? I don't think and I'm trying to, I'm having this emotion, this emotion and this opportunity to try and make a connection from this. And you know, and then I'll find myself, I'll look up and be an hour later.
SPEAKER_04:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:You know, so it's it's real. And again, it the trauma just manifests itself in so many different ways. And what happens is because we don't always have platforms or communities, you think that you're the only one going through, and it's like, I don't want to tell anybody, I don't want to share. Where it is, no, these are realistic responses, these are human behaviors that are response to trauma. That's right. And and you know, we I think now that we're in a place in our in our world where we have the language to be able to what we're going through. And umteen years ago, I'm not gonna tell our ages, but umteen years ago, they didn't have the language. That's right. In addition to they didn't have the access to be able to get certain services and call that what it is.
SPEAKER_04:You're right, you know.
SPEAKER_00:So I celebrate the fact that individuals that look like us are trying to make sure we give back, to make sure that we empower, to make sure that we create communities of support so that the generation that's coming behind us they don't have to face the same potholes in the street that we did.
SPEAKER_01:Right, that's right.
SPEAKER_00:So uh again, just thank you both for the the transparency in that.
SPEAKER_01:And oh, thank you. Thank you, yeah. Um that's and I find that I find that a lot of adoptees are selfless to a fault almost, and we have to remember like I don't enjoy being the center of attention, but we are the center of this constellation, right? And it's not to say that we shouldn't be thoughtful and intentional about how we engage with everybody in the constellation, whether it's family or biofamily, but it's also like this is my experience. Like, if I'm if I you know want to understand some things, I think we have to remind ourselves that we have the agency to ask the questions, to uncover some things, you know, respectfully, of course, but I think you know, oftentimes I've seen this anecdotally where adoptees are like, oh, we don't want to rock the boat, or it's like, well, we didn't build the boat, right? Exactly. We just showed up here. I'm just I'm just trying to figure me out and and just for us to remember that everyone deserves to know where, when, and how we came from, right? And whatever that takes, you know, it's worth doing that work.
SPEAKER_00:So that that's me. I don't want to rock the boat.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, oh, I'm gonna rock the boat.
SPEAKER_00:Let's see, you gotta think about so again, this is nature versus nurture, right? Yes, so my my parents were from Alabama, the deep south. Their mindset was, you are a large black male, so they instilled in me a level of humility that is sometimes it's to a fault. Like I wish I didn't have the amount of humility I have sometimes, yeah, because it causes more challenge and conflict in an everyday basis. So I've had to kind of adapt and make some adjustments, and I still revert back to well, it's okay, just live the fight another day, you know, God will take care of you, and even you know, with the mindset of me coming back as an inconvenience, the reality I don't have to have that's that's I shouldn't have to wear that banner. I don't have to, but I choose to, and it just worked out. And again, this is where it's all God ordained because it worked out because from the time of me finding biological family to the time me and biological mom met, a lot of that time in between, because of my humility, because of my humbleness, because of my patience, it allowed, I believe, us to have a positive relationship now. Because I think it came in, you know, guns blazing, right? It would have pushed her back further.
SPEAKER_03:Right, right.
SPEAKER_00:I wanted to create an opportunity where you have no reason to feel or see anything negative. I'm here in an effort of peace. I'm here in an effort to just get to know you. I want to bring something positive to the table.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, oh my goodness. You you have this has been wonderful. This has truly been wonderful.
SPEAKER_03:It has.
SPEAKER_00:So two questions, and then we're gonna get ready to land the plane. I have two, Lisa may have a few more. So talk to me about in the five years of you being in your position, what has been your greatest reward?
SPEAKER_01:I would say it's it's really been, you know, similar to my adoption journey, it's really been a faith walk, right? So, you know, it's very much God doesn't call the call, he doesn't call the qualified, he qualified to the call, right? That's right. I came and I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing. Like I'm I was like, what am I supposed to do here? And then, you know, the humility piece comes in. It's like you can lead with inquiry. It's okay to ask questions. You don't have to pretend like you know everything. Building a community within the child welfare system in New York City, where they've been, you know, anyone who I've asked for help has given it to me. People who barely know me, right? So I think the reward for me is like allowing myself to be vulnerable, dropping those walls, right? Those walls that I said that I I dropped those walls at least professionally, and that has benefited me greatly. So I think that's been the reward where I've I took the chance, the challenge of accepting the role, and then walking through with humility and and curiosity, and always, you know, wanting to learn and you know, being comfortable with failing, right? I mess up almost every day, right? And understanding there's a lesson to be learned from that.
SPEAKER_00:Being comfortable with failing. That's right. That is so powerful.
SPEAKER_03:That's good.
SPEAKER_00:That is a that's one of the reasons that a lot of people don't try and they don't want to fail, they won't say it, but that's at the core because somebody may told them you can't, you won't, and they've or they've seen other people not do it, and they just don't have the ability to have, as you called it, a faith walk. That's that's the core, that's at the core of all of it. It's all about the faith walk.
SPEAKER_04:That's true, that's true.
SPEAKER_00:So the second question is this what would you say to somebody who is just trying to find their way, whether it be someone who's in the foster care system or somebody who wants to get into that field, or somebody who is, you know, adopted and trying to come to terms, you know, just what would be the the nugget that you would want people to walk away with after you know experiencing this this journey? And I say experience and not listening, because I feel like it it draws you in. There are so many heart strings and so many realities and aha moments that you can't just listen to this, you experience it. Yeah. So what do you want people to walk away with?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, finding your way, whether it's professionally or personally, I think you've got to really be honest with yourself about what your needs are. Like, what are you really looking for? Right? What are you hoping to achieve with this journey that you're on? And then allowing yourself, you know, for me, it's like like you were saying, Lisa, before you felt one way about biological father. Now, oh, look, seems like I turned the corner. That's okay, right? Allow yourself to experience that flex that flexibility in your emotion and giving yourself a lot of grace and understanding like this is your experience, and no one else gets to tell you how to feel about it. And I would say, because of how challenging the emotions can be, I have always found it, you know, the the first thought in my mind when those emotions, when those challenging emotions pop up is to flee. It's like I'm out, I don't want to. That is always my initial thought. And I allow myself to feel that because knowing I'm I'm going to go back and wrestle with it, but I allow myself to fake flee for a little while. And then I come back and sit in it. Where it's like, and I don't, you know, I used to beat up on myself about that. Where it's like, no, that's just that is part, that's your, you know, you talk about trauma response. Okay, you responded, and now you can go back and course correct, sit in it, and really process it. So, really, it's about patience and you know, acknowledging and being honest with yourself about what are you feeling, what are you trying to accomplish. And then it's the support piece, whether it's therapy or settings like this where you're able to share your story or a close friend or a family member, like, don't ever try to process anything on your own, right? You should not like there's nothing to be gained, you don't get a special ribbon for trying to figure something out on your own. There's always going to be somewhere, someone around you that can help you through it. That's right.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. Wow. Anything that you anything else?
SPEAKER_03:There's nothing other than drop drop the mic.
SPEAKER_00:Drop the mic.
SPEAKER_01:That's it. Well, I have to say how much I appreciate the two of you for creating this space. It's so unique and it's so necessary. This has been therapeutic and cathartic for me, and I'm sure it's been the same for the rest of your guests. So I'm really honored to even just be a part of this. So thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's this you are more than welcome. More than welcome. Again, thank you for the vulnerability, the transparency, and just being willing to come on with us and share your story. And again, I'm trying to just suppress my emotions because uh I celebrate this opportunity to be able to connect like-minded individuals who have who carry this this banner, as I call it. And as we learn, because we don't have all the answers, we're trying to figure it out. You know, life is lifing, and we have different variables to help, you know, to that we have to overcome. Yeah, and based on what you shared, we gotta go to specific individuals to make sure that we get the appropriate support. Because it's one thing, one thing to get support, but it may not be effective for you. Yeah, you know, I used to work security at a hospital that had been shut down in the Fort News. Ironically, it was the one that I was born in. How crazy was that? Didn't know it's but we I used to work security and individuals, yeah. Individu would come and I would just they would knock on the door. I need help. And I said, You know that we're closed, there's no doctors here. You're just coming just to make yourself feel good, you're not really coming to give support. And to me, that's an illustration. I think sometimes people will do stuff because, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do. But when you're really ready to do the work, then you identify where you need to get the help from, and then you follow things. So again, you just gave, like I said, you you motivated me to get some pinpointed therapy. Yes, that's that's the language I want to use.
SPEAKER_03:That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, thank you. Yes, what's the name of the conference that you you mentioned earlier?
SPEAKER_01:So it's the Barker Adoption Foundation, okay, and it's I believe it's every March. Okay, okay, and it's in the Bethesda, Maryland.
SPEAKER_00:Got it. And the reason I asked, we'll we'll put some information up about it, but again, just trying to let people know because there's a community that suffers in silence.
SPEAKER_01:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:Because they don't know who and they don't know if they're gonna be judged, so they just sit and try and figure it out, figure it out themselves, right?
SPEAKER_01:And you don't have to do it alone, like I said. You don't, you don't.
SPEAKER_00:So, Jennifer, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you both. Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you. And we normally have a certain sign-off. If you've watched our podcast, you know how it is. So we're not gonna give no instruction because you should know. Ready, I'm ready.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so I'm Lisa, I'm John, I'm Jennifer, and we are about adopted.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, yes, yes. Please hit the like, hit the share, let somebody know. Please give us some feedback on this episode and how it has impacted you. Um, if you have any questions, please let us know. We'll make sure that Jennifer gets them. If you have if you live in the New York area or the Maryland area, or just and the reason being is because they're different rules in different states. I mean, we're gonna have Jennifer back so she can give us a breakdown on what it looks like in New York because the older adoption population, that's a totally different conversation. Yes, it is. We were adopted young, so we don't have that lens. So now that she has this information, we want to make sure that we share it because we've come in contact with some individuals that have gone through that process. Some individuals who you know may want to give back or whatever it may be, or may know somebody that may want to share. So we are definitely looking forward to the next episode. And thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Any last words, Lisa?
SPEAKER_03:No, nope. I'm just happy you were able to be somewhere you weren't supposed to be. That's all I gotta say.
SPEAKER_00:But she was supposed to be he was supposed to be there, unless you snuff it. Did you sneak up there?
SPEAKER_01:She snuck up there, she said she did. She no Lisa's right. Remember, I said I do not have the credentials.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. But you know what? God gave you the credentials. Oh, that's it. All right.
SPEAKER_00:Here's the thing I'm gonna debunk that because I think I told you you you hung with the cool kid. So please have the credentials. You you were you were straight by the crew. But look, we're gonna let you go. Yes, thank you so much, and looking forward to the next interview, the next opportunity, the next experience that we have. Thank you, and just pray that your week is a fellow is thank you for listening to the Soul of Adopted podcast. We hope that this was informative and educational. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at So I'm Adopted. Also subscribe to our YouTube channel, so I'm a doctor. And again, thank you for listening. And until next time, make the choice to begin your healing journey.
