magine standing at a crossroads, the path behind you a tapestry of silence and secrets, the way ahead promising a reunion with a piece of your soul you didn't know was missing.
As we reveal our personal experiences with adoption and the significant impact of reuniting with our biological mothers, our tales intertwine with the heart-stirring stories of others, including the public reunion of Kirk Franklin with his father, offering a guiding light for anyone navigating the complexities of identity and belonging.Through reflections on Kirk Franklin's own odyssey and the transformative power of such experiences, we underscore the essential role of acceptance and ongoing growth, not just for adoptees, but for everyone forging connections with their past.As the tapestry continues to unfurl, we touch upon the broader implications of family ties and the unexpected ways in which life's serendipities can lead to healing, acceptance, and a deeper understanding of our heritage. From the catharsis of an emotional church reunion to the revelation of hidden truths join us as we journey together through the lives and loves that shape us, both through birth and the families we choose.
Music by Curtis Rodgers IG @itsjustcurtis
Produce and Edited by Lisa Sapp
Executive Producer Lisa Sapp
Executive Producer Johnnie Underwood
Tell us your story or leave a comment by following us on
IG soimadoptedpod
FB so.i'm adopted
Youtube SO...I'M ADOPTED
Email soimadopted@gmail.com
magine standing at a crossroads, the path behind you a tapestry of silence and secrets, the way ahead promising a reunion with a piece of your soul you didn't know was missing.
As we reveal our personal experiences with adoption and the significant impact of reuniting with our biological mothers, our tales intertwine with the heart-stirring stories of others, including the public reunion of Kirk Franklin with his father, offering a guiding light for anyone navigating the complexities of identity and belonging.Through reflections on Kirk Franklin's own odyssey and the transformative power of such experiences, we underscore the essential role of acceptance and ongoing growth, not just for adoptees, but for everyone forging connections with their past.As the tapestry continues to unfurl, we touch upon the broader implications of family ties and the unexpected ways in which life's serendipities can lead to healing, acceptance, and a deeper understanding of our heritage. From the catharsis of an emotional church reunion to the revelation of hidden truths join us as we journey together through the lives and loves that shape us, both through birth and the families we choose.
Music by Curtis Rodgers IG @itsjustcurtis
Produce and Edited by Lisa Sapp
Executive Producer Lisa Sapp
Executive Producer Johnnie Underwood
Tell us your story or leave a comment by following us on
IG soimadoptedpod
FB so.i'm adopted
Youtube SO...I'M ADOPTED
Email soimadopted@gmail.com
Welcome to the so Unadopted podcast where we talk everything adoption. This journey is not one we take alone. Together, we grapple with raw emotions that surface from adoption stories I want you to be comfortable enough to hear, so sit back and go with us on this journey as we dive deep into adoption.
Speaker 1:Hey, so welcome again to another episode of so Unadopted podcast. I'm Lisa, I'm John, and together we are adopted. So again, we wanted to create a space for adoptions, truths, and to be able to share them. Even though we both have a common denominator in this whole situation which we are adopted, our stories are definitely different and we just wanted to be able to share our stories and want others to probably come and tell us about their stories as well. But we're just going to start off with our stories and then we'll go from there. You know.
Speaker 2:Our stories give the validations of why we're able to speak about this platform, and this podcast is where we will hear adoption truths from other adoptees, adoptive parents and birth parents and families, because everybody's impacted differently with regards to the concept of adoption.
Speaker 2:We will also hear input from licensed professionals such as psychologists, social workers, to get a deeper understanding of the adoption journey, because there's so many different levels and players in that journey that you go on. Hopefully, these stories and perspectives will give hope, understanding and courage to those who share our adopted or are considering adoption, along with the journey of acceptance, reconciliation and maintenance of being adopted. Those are the pillars that we're defining that during that journey, you will experience it's not to say that you won't experience others, but again that journey of acceptance, when you first find out that reconciliation, whether it's with those adopted parents, whether it's with the biological parents, even with yourself, and then the maintenance of being adopted. Once you come to terms with everything you accepted, then what happens with the rest of your life? Do you talk about it? Do you help others as they go through the journey? All of those variables are what we have defined as pillars in the commonalities of our journeys.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so today we did discuss our last episode that we're going to talk about, when we actually met our biological mothers. But before we get to our personal stories, because just recently Kirk Franklin had the opportunity to document him meeting his father for the first time his biological father and that I mean I couldn't text you fast enough to send that to you. So let's deep dive into that, shall we?
Speaker 2:Shall we, let's deep dive. So I'm going to ask you what was your perspective? And again, having heard our stories and the journeys, what was your first and foremost? When you first got the concept of Father's Day, I didn't know what to expect. I know he's got an album coming out, so I'm excited because I'm like all right, I'm about to get some new music Music what had no idea the depths that he was going to take us.
Speaker 1:For some reason I had kind of a thought that it was going to be him finding his father. I knew it had something to do with that I don't know why it's Father's Day. I knew that he didn't. You know he was adopted and things of that nature. So I kind of had an idea, but I wasn't sure. So I wasn't surprised. Surprised, but how it all came about, that was amazing. That was a shocker.
Speaker 2:We encourage you to go to YouTube and watch the documentary to give you some understanding. Don't let this be the spoiler. You need to watch it so you can have your own independent feelings. We'll share ours. So I would encourage you and you don't have most people say stop this podcast.
Speaker 1:Father's Day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, stop this on pause, we'll pause for one second and go to YouTube Right.
Speaker 1:Watch it because it's and we'll wait until you come back.
Speaker 2:Right, you're going to rob yourself if you don't watch it, to have your own emotional tie to it. Yes, so talk to me about how you felt watching it.
Speaker 1:You know me, I'm a big crybaby, so I was crying through the whole thing. It's just how he talked about. It was a small town he grew up in and what really struck me was how he kept saying how did this one little baby and nobody know about this one little baby fall through the cracks? I don't understand it. He just couldn't wrap his head around that In this small town, nobody knew that this woman was pregnant, nobody knew and how. His father was at a funeral and said oh, you know what I'm used to date and I can't remember his mother's name Deborah, deborah, just like that. All these years no one questioned it. Now I understand about people not questioning things. Correct. What's true about?
Speaker 1:it I want to be in your business. But just in my journey no one wanted to question. Well, no one did question my nucleus of a family growing up because we kind of we didn't really look alike but our complexions were the same, so no one questioned that. So I kind of understand why no one would question in this town. You're seeing this man all over the world. You're not going to like, hmm, let me hear his look familiar. You know what I'm saying. But God does things the way he does things for a reason. That's the truth. The first thing that came to my mind is, if Kirk didn't go down the path that he went down, he may not be Kirk Franklin today. We all go through what we go through for a purpose. It's not by accident. No, it's not. It's not by accident. But his mom is shady. That's all I got to say. So that's just me.
Speaker 2:I mean, mama is shady and was interesting and I've looked at dialogue as we talk about it. Yes, so what was interesting? His dad said I was a child when I dated them. He did so immediately. I'm thinking did she take advantage of him? You know what I'm saying? You think about it from that standpoint because even as him, he and Kirk were talking, he said I didn't know anything about her being pregnant or anything of that nature. So as a child he had this experience. Now I'm going to play, I ain't thinking about that.
Speaker 2:So when you talk about mama and her choices, why Kirk don't talk to her now and whatever it was, that part really stood out to me and I was like, wow. So and the father, like he broke down and he was like if I had known so all these years and he had no problem saying you know, if this is what it is, you pursue it. So that, like I said, that part stuck out to me, the whole. I was a child. So now this child, he didn't go into his experience because he didn't make it about him. He didn't make anything about him, and that's the part that. That's the part that broke me when he said you determine who you Give me access to. This is about you, yep.
Speaker 2:So the thing that I Guess broke me in it when he said that I reflected over my journey and and you know, a lot of times through my journey, it wasn't about me, it was about the other people and protecting their feelings and their, their, space. So my, my adopted mom didn't want it because she felt Maybe threatened to some degree. So to protect her, I don't say anything. My adopted mom in my biological mom you know she wasn't ready and now I know why, but it still was that. No, yeah. So in my head when Kirk's father said that it Wait on me heavy, because I didn't, I didn't have that. It's about you right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I'm saying you know what, even in my situation, it wasn't about me. It was more about my adopted mom because Whether and I mean I can't say that she wasn't proud of who I was, but not proud enough to say, hey, I adopted her, I chose her out of any other child I could have chosen. But rather keep it a secret Versus making an adoption something to celebrate.
Speaker 2:But then I actually do you think that adoption was really Like, how did our culture look at adoption?
Speaker 1:because even now it's not like really put out there and promoted it's still not, because, typically, back then in the 60s, in the 70s, it was more so a Shame it was, you know, oh, we got hide the secret that took place on this side, right. But then you have other people who you know can't have children, right, and say, well, since they messed up, or what have you? Whatever came to be for us to be here? Well, let's take that and make it a positive for this couple who can't conceive for whatever reason, right? So I mean it has a purpose, because we're not born by accident.
Speaker 2:No, we're not, but it does take. And again, this is why it's beneficial to have those answers, because when you don't, when you're unable to fill in the blanks, you'll insert different things. You will, and a lot of times, unfortunately, we go to the negative of you know how I got here, who I, who I could be, and it's always, you know, and I guess that's just a culture thing as well where we assume the worst.
Speaker 1:We do, we do, but we assume the worst because Society and our history has Fostered it for us to always assume the worst.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not saying that it's not Valid, the thoughts, yeah. But I think as as time has evolved and we learn more and we're more aware from the mental health standpoint, you begin to understand that, like you said, from a cultural standpoint, everything that we've experienced takes us down this journey. But we have things in place to help us Do some positive thinking to replace those negative, negative thoughts. Yes, you know so, even you know. Going back to the Kirk Franklin thing, I Remember, and you know you share your experience, when Kirk got the call and he was looking out the window and he was like what, what? He just kept saying, what, that disbelief that 50 I was Kirk, 56 he was saying no, fifty, fifty three, so fifty plus years of Not knowing. And then he even shared it was another guy.
Speaker 1:That he thought was that he thought he was by last, but then he's like when he was on the man's on the death bed. He said all I needed was that, that love and that you know, that assurance, and the guys like, yeah, understand.
Speaker 2:He said he didn't know why he couldn't get it. I couldn't get to. That wasn't his biological right, you know. So again, it wasn't about Kirk, because if it was, he would have said well, dude, I did the best I could. Exactly, I was just there to support he took it, took it to his grave. You know, maybe he knew what it, who knows?
Speaker 1:who knows, or you know, or even if he was, had a little doubt. Maybe I might not be his, but I'm not gonna bring that to him right now. You know, I'm saying as far as you know. He may not have been a hundred percent sure that he was his father.
Speaker 2:Well, he could have had the car self. I'm about to pass away. It's about me. This is what I need, you know. I think that you know, selfishness can be subjective at times. They can, you know, because one could say he had every right and then one could say no, he didn't. And until you walk in that path, that for yourself you just don't know, you just don't know, you don't know, you don't know. So when you first found out your information, like and I call it that Kirk Franklin moment, where he was like what, what, what, what, when you're watching that, what did it? Did stir up anything for you?
Speaker 1:or it did. It stirred up that when I went to to really go face-to-face to my grandmother and she shut me down. And then I went to my aunt and that's when I was like First of doing what, what, what? I was like, you know, because you're telling me now after all these years, and Maya told me that Actual numbers or facts matter, times and dates matter.
Speaker 1:So, I had to really calculate. So I was 37. Okay, I've been around to 40, because it's easy to remember. But okay, she said, no, mom, it's important. Okay, so I was 37 at the time that this all you know took place. So, at a 37 year old, with three kids, a house or husband and all this stuff, all of a sudden you're gonna tell me that the life that I lived before Was all alive. Now, mind you, what also I struggled with with Rick Kirk Franklin is how he grew up, how he struggled. I Can't say that, right, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm saying we were blessed and that we were blessed.
Speaker 1:But again, everybody's journey is not the same, even though he turned out to be Kirk Franklin. But his journey was a struggle. But if he didn't have that struggle, do you think he would have been able to put out the music that he puts out today?
Speaker 2:You know God I guess had to take him Deep down, yes, so that he could pull out what was laying dormant inside him. You know it is. You never look at somebody's journey and say, oh, I want that. You know people always say I want the patient of Job. I don't want that because that means I gotta do something that Needs that much patience. I don't need that much of my life, exactly, but that's when you are more mature, you're thinking and you recognize that these are the variables that lead to that. Yeah, you know he, he has a gift and God is not going to give gifts and not allow them to come to the surface. Yeah, so I agree with you. I think that you know you had to take him through that so that that can come out. You know, as much as we look at everything that he has in the public eye, that hurt that he suffered with and probably still is suffering, but remember what he said now, I don't know if you mentioned it in yours, but I know I did.
Speaker 1:No, you did too when we started speaking to our biological mothers how we revert back to being kids again. Remember he said I felt like I was 10 years old yeah, I'm 52 years old and that buzzed me anyway, because that's the same thing I felt when I started, really, you know, when I met my mother, all of a sudden I went back to being a child again. I'm a grown woman, like a child, I just want to be underneath her and and you know, it's crazy how that happens, and I'm sure we're not the only ones. Oh no, I'm sure that's a common thing.
Speaker 2:But and again, this is why you have to put language to Situations because, like you said, it's commonalities. We just don't call it what it is. Yeah, you know, you know you talk about that when you revert back. So then, talking to my biological mom, you know we text back and forth and like she'll call. So I had texted her last month and I said, hey, I'm about to. I got a preach in two weeks, no pressure, but just wanted to let you know. And that's, I just was letting her know. So she calls me. And she said Do you want me to come? And I was stuck like Is it your question? Like yeah, and she said all you had to do is ask. She says we're beyond that. She says just ask.
Speaker 2:And it was that moment of like a mother helping their child Navigate a tough situation, and it wasn't like a rapper man, but it was her feeling confident and comfortable enough to say, no, this is what you need to do in this space, Right, and you know she ended up coming and it was just like that moment of I felt like that child, oh, my mom is here, right. And I went to her prior to and I said, well, listen, I'm gonna introduce my family. She was like, um, she's like, it's not about me, don't even mention. I said, okay, no problem, and I said I don't want you to be slighted, so I wanted to give you the option, you know, to talk. You know.
Speaker 2:So that whole Not knowing because she didn't know what other people's narrative was about it as well. So again it goes back to that taboo about what took place and why was she back now and all of these different things. And you know, at the end, because she met a few people that were there and I told, I said that's my village that has been with me on this journey, and she said everybody was just so nice, everybody. She said I felt like I was on cheers when everybody knew my name and I said, well, they do know. You know, you know, and and that's the part seeing Kirk Interact with his mom, but he hadn't spoke for 20 years, over 20 years but then seeing how she responded, because All right, after the first DNA test she wanted a second one, and then she still wouldn't.
Speaker 2:And he said if you can't give me this, like what you're arguing with the facts.
Speaker 1:DNA don't lie, so doesn't lie. And they did it twice and she was still refusing. And then her sister Right was like like look, he just wants the truth.
Speaker 2:So I guess the sister knows something.
Speaker 1:Sisters always know something. I'm just saying, okay, I'm putting it out there. Okay, I'm just saying, no, they maybe not, I don't know the way she was talking.
Speaker 2:I think she knew something.
Speaker 1:She knew something. But obviously they always say it's not my place to tell you, especially if she's sitting right there. What would it? You see what I'm saying? You're sitting right there and again I don't know what the sister relationship is. All I know is she was like saying look, he just wants the truth. So she's pleading with her about saying it. But again, that's her sister, she can't just over. After all these years I would think she would. But again we don't know the dynamics of their relationship so we can't say what she should have done.
Speaker 1:Correct, but Auntie got a little hooded because even when she got a little hooded she was like, excuse me.
Speaker 2:He was like Auntie. She said okay, and I was like wow, he was like I'm 53 years old.
Speaker 1:He's a custom now.
Speaker 2:You know, but that's a challenge, but I think and I can't speak for you, but I believe it's the same I think, as a result of coming out of that secrecy, we fought, especially in my house, and you can share it if you did the same we fought hard to have a level of transparency, age-appropriate transparency, but create a dynamic where if you ask me a question, I'm gonna answer it. The answer may be not yet, but I'm still. At least create that dynamic where you feel safe to ask, whereas for me I didn't have that luxury, it was because I said so. That was the answer.
Speaker 1:Well, that was how it was. That's the tell, what you know. That was the culture.
Speaker 2:That was the culture you know you stay in a child's place, like exactly, and I think that you can still have a child in their place, but you respond age appropriately because if you put that stay in a child's place, what it does, it hinders their ability to advocate and ask questions and explore For that right, and when things of that nature happen, they're not inept to say, hey, this is what's going on, you know, in my life.
Speaker 1:And again that opens up another can of worms of different things, unhealthy things. So the way we grew up and the way our kids grew up now is it's a different world, even though they have more that they have to deal with. But they're a little bit more aware of who they are Correct and what you know. Their self-awareness is way further along than what ours are.
Speaker 2:We're back then. Well, they're exposed to so many more things. They are, they are. So it just opens up Pandora's box, Like the only thing we had was that stack of encyclopedias. If your parents invested and they got, you know, they got at their fingertips Exactly the world. They can go anywhere and do anything like in the moment where we had history. That was our teacher.
Speaker 1:That was our teacher. You know you and all of it wasn't the good history because it was missing a lot of gaps. But getting back to Kirk, how he handled his father when they first met, you know how he stood in front of the door and he just had to get himself together. The dad opened the door and he's like hey, come on in.
Speaker 2:You know, like there's no people here, Because at that point he still didn't know. The dad didn't know, the dad didn't know.
Speaker 1:But Kirk did. And he, I mean, he was like, okay, I need to get myself together, right, I can understand that Mine didn't go that way, mine, mine. You would have thought in that particular situation, when my mom and I first met for the first time face to face, that we would probably hug and break down crying right there at the door. None of that happened. It was like, oh, lisa's here from out of town, you know, like it was no big deal. I walked in, I gave her a hug Like I've seen her all my life, we just coming home for a holiday, right, that's how it was. And then, you know, my siblings and my nieces and nephews, they were all there and you know I had my kids and my husband. We all went there. So it was just like it was Business as usual. Business as usual. That was the crazy part, that it just happened so naturally.
Speaker 2:But it hits you there after, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:It hit me the next day. Okay, yes, yeah, that was a moment.
Speaker 2:I'm sure the adrenaline probably helped you navigate in that moment. But then, once that adrenaline went away, yes, for both of us.
Speaker 1:We were in. So I have an aunt who's a, has her own church. She's an apostle, and you know me, we got there maybe on a Saturday. Now, like, well, wherever you go, I'm going, cause she didn't know I was coming. The rest of the family knew, okay, it was for her, so it's a surprise for her birthday. Oh, wow. So everybody else knew, everybody else is at the house, you know. And she opened the door and there I was and it was like oh, so again, childlike feelings, wherever you go, mom, I'm going with you, I don't care where you go, you we're there, right. So he said, well, I'm going to church, great, let's go. Fantastic, I'm going to be right there with you. So, you know, she kind of told my aunt that we were coming to her church and my grandmother was there, and it's a small church, one big church, so if there's visitors, everybody knows, and it was five of us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought y'all were singing.
Speaker 1:It was five of us and again, I'll reiterate, again, it's a small church. So we sat on the back row, right, and everybody was like, okay, we got visitors. Now, obviously my aunt knew Right, and my mom, she was already there because she was ushering, okay, and you know, she started preaching. You know, service started and everybody was, you know, doing a normal service thing, and then she started preaching and I remember that sermon was such a time as this, that was the name of her sermon and she's, you know, she was talking about during a time, I think, for rock had just rebelled and reelected or something of that nature. So she said, well, that was what she was going to preach about. But she went another way, so she started walking up and down. So she's, she's very prophetic, okay, all right, I am looking at this woman.
Speaker 2:You already know it's about to come down to pipe.
Speaker 1:I already know I am looking at her. She starts off with Titus. That was crazy, never met him before and she read him like a book. Wow, she called her son from off the pulpit and said minister to minister, shake his hand. I was like, wow, that was crazy. She went to TC. She spoke over him. We're like went to my, she spoke over here. Mind you, I'm not looking at this woman. She went to Jasmine, spoke, spoke over her. I was like I'm at the end of the row. That was about design. She walks all the way around, comes back up. I stand up. She starts talking to me, I break down and she just holds me so close Like it was like my breath was just coming from out of me, it was being sucked out of me. I was crying so hard and then everybody was looking around like what's this about, right? What in the world? So she said well, I don't know if I can say it Again, still saying I don't know if I can say it.
Speaker 1:I mean at this point At this point I was saying so all I hear is yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So she said well, this is well, she calls my mother over first, right, just to make sure she calls. No, she calls my mother over first and, cause I was crying so hard, she calls her over. And then that's when my mom and I embraced and we just went berserk. So that's when she said I don't know if I can say it, everybody's like, yes, say it. So they said this is her daughter, that she gave up for adoption. Church went crazy, everybody went crazy. I mean when I you know, this is not that, it was what you would have thought we would have did the day before.
Speaker 2:And I was meant to happen there.
Speaker 1:And I mean it was just crazy. It was crazy. Then I met my grandmother and she just went. Oh, she kept going and rocking. Thank you Jesus, thank you Jesus, thank you Jesus, we'll unpack that somewhere in the middle of the night.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it was crazy, you know, it's like she saw a ghost. It was very, very intense. And then the next day, when we left and we, you know, we didn't, honestly we didn't stay at her house, but we came over there before we, you know, were leaving and she just kept hugging me. She wouldn't let me go because we all got up, titus would say. I just told them the kids to stick that down, because it might take a minute, because we, she wouldn't let me go. And all she kept saying is I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. That's all she kept saying. And I said don't worry about it, it's okay.
Speaker 1:I'm here now, you know I'm here now for you and I'm not, I'm not going anywhere and it's all. She kept saying I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I said it's okay and she needed to hear me say that.
Speaker 2:And it's interesting because that was a real emotion for you, like that was your reality, like it's okay, it's it's it's okay.
Speaker 2:And I think that is a testament. Like you said, we were blessed where we don't have the. You know the reality of my life was horrible and you had kept me. It would have been this and would have been that People do have that they do. That wasn't and I'm thankful. You know that wasn't my. You know your journey and story. But you hear people that are angry, that end up in the system and nobody wants to. You know, adopt them as they get older. Yes, you know they end up potentially getting in trouble or whatever it may be, and they have that. You know you did this to me so I can respect the thought of I need to apologize. I need to apologize. I was one of the things that my biological mama shared, cause like the first time I met her, you know was at my dad's funeral.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I had the pleasure of being there, right.
Speaker 2:You're right, and I didn't know it was her until after the fact and it just it took me on a different space, you know, and so much. So I texted my brother and I was like hey, what's her number? And he was like why? I was like she came to the funeral. I want to say thank you. So I'm going back to that 10, that child, where it's like nobody else matters right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and after we talked she said one for you to be concerned, to say thank you to me for coming to your father's funeral. She said that pushed her to a point where it was like like whoa, she said her concern was was I safe? Was I okay, was I happy? Those were what she worried about throughout my life. Yeah, yeah, she said, and being able to come and watch me do the eulogy, being in that space, it answered all of her questions. And then this was God, because at the end of the eulogy I turned around to the past and I said it's no secret that I was adopted not knowing that she was in a room. I remember that that was not planned in my outline, it was in my head. I needed to communicate the significance of my father, always taking care of others but trusting me, how he had trusted me to give this eulogy. So I wanted to tie it all back in, not knowing that it was a confirmation yell to her. I've always known I'm securing it, I'm thankful, whenever you are ready, I'm here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she said that listening to it, because initially she said I was just. She said I wasn't going to go, but something told me to go. She said, and then I was just going to go in the back and leave. She said but then I saw somebody that knew me, that knew you, and I know they was going to say something. And then I heard your eulogy. She said I had to stand in that long line and I had to come up there and speak to you and in my head I was like but if you had just told me who you were in that moment she was like no, it wasn't about that. So it's interesting and again I'm sure we'll dig deep into that what it actually entails, because it was mind blowing. That was my what, what moment. It wasn't what I had when, when I first got the file, but that moment of she was here, I didn't realize it Right, I missed it. She was like this close.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:She gave me a hug, right, and I'm just like, oh my gosh. But then when we had that second opportunity to sit down, like you said, it was that awkward. I didn't give her a hug first and I was like, okay, let's go. We went to go eat and then at the end I said I said kind of, give her a hug. And she was like, okay. So it's that journey of both people having their preconceived notions and then being able to suspend them and trust basically, yeah, because they got to trust that she's going to. It's a vulnerable moment For both. That's what I'm saying. It's a very vulnerable moment. So you have to be able to trust what is inside of you of okay, how do I navigate this space?
Speaker 1:and then be able to pick up on the social cues as well. Yeah, and that's important, because for me, from my perspective and I'm not saying that I was dismissing her, but I went so back to being a child, like it's like I didn't care what she said, I didn't care about her feelings. You know what I'm saying. I just wanted to be near you, I just wanted to lay in the bed next to you. You know what I'm saying? Right, I just wanted to get you know right in my bed, or, you know, get off my bed, you're a little bit too close. I just met you. You know, I didn't care, I did not care at that point. She didn't do any of that. Right, you want to make up for lost time, but right.
Speaker 1:That's it, and that's the only thing she would always say I don't, I don't, you know I don't have any money, or you know, I have nothing to give you. I said well, we're eating because I don't have none either. I said but all I want is your time. Right, and that's all I want is your time. And you know, unfortunately, well, fortunately, it's, it's fortunate I did get our time. I just didn't get enough time that I thought I was to get. But again, we can unpack that at another time.
Speaker 2:So, going back to the Kirk Franklin documentary, he gets the call, he's like, oh my gosh, this is real. He goes and shares it with the people he's working with and you can see them breaking down. So I remember sharing with you and our crew yeah, you know they. This is where I met in the excitement and it's almost therapeutic, because when we talk about that vulnerability, I can't be vulnerable with everybody. This is a safe space. Let me unpack it. And even as you share it, you're picking up on how people are responding and what they're looking. You know how they're looking. So I'm watching and the people in the room are are crying and they're supporting it.
Speaker 2:And the young lady who was at the funeral, you know they got the information right. You know Kirk expressed that they were close. Yes, and just to watch her, because now she's like that piece of the puzzle that was missing, to help open that gap, help get a bridge. Yeah, you know. So I couldn't even imagine the joy that you know she feels because you know, if I wasn't there, you know who's to say that she contemplated not going that day. Who's to say that you know she would have been like, yeah, I got to leave early or I'm going to get there later whatever man Exactly. But because she was in the right place at the right time what God wanted her to be they unlocked this other door.
Speaker 1:And the thing is, the funeral she was going to was Kirk's aunt.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But he said he didn't go because he figured his mom was going to be there so he didn't want to go.
Speaker 1:And this I mean God put that on his spirit so that this other piece could take place, exactly Because if he and mom had been there, none of that other stuff probably would have happened, because he probably wouldn't have said anything, the dad, anybody he would probably left out, because the mom probably would have caused a scene, because it's all about her, all about her and you know. But everything happened the way it was supposed to happen.
Speaker 2:Right and he was like he was shooting a documentary.
Speaker 1:And he said he'd never never done it before In the 13 albums, never.
Speaker 2:And this crew was following him Everywhere. You know, whatever, and I always say, you know, we like to call the spirit by the wrong name because we'll say, well, something told me and something that's no, that was what name. Oh, we know, the spirit is what led you to do X, y and Z Exactly. Call it what it is, exactly. You know, so that to watch that journey, like I said, for me it was that pain of what's never been about me. It's always been controlled by other people the narratives, yeah.
Speaker 2:But then I have to fall back on my face and say, well, maybe that's what I needed. You know what I'm saying. If I'm gonna say, you know, god is in control, then I have to understand that his ways are not my ways and what he does will not always be clear to me, but I always accept the fact that it will always work off of my good. Yes, yes. So I look at it and you know I wrestled with that thing. When his father said you determine, this is about you, I started crying, me and Janet, me and my wife are sitting there and you know she got the tissue, you know, did the right thing, but it was painful. So after we watched it, she said you wanna talk? And I said I don't know if I should be angry. I said I don't know. I said but that statement spoke volumes to me, you know.
Speaker 2:And then spoke with a few other people that have just kind of talked to me on this journey and one of the guys said well, it's like when you are grilling, all you can do is put the meat in the proper position, but on this day it may take 30 minutes to cook. Next day it may take 45 minutes to cook. You're not in control of all of the variables. All you can do is put the meat on yeah. All you can do is prepare it yeah. Something else controls those variables, but the end result is something great. Great. I said well, since you put it that way.
Speaker 1:I mean, do you think that it resonated with you? Because it was Kirk?
Speaker 2:and his father. Absolutely so. It was that I'm happy for Kirk, I celebrated, but that little kid where maybe, if others weren't controlling the narrative, I could have had time and found him before he transitioned. You know, that's and it's not a judgment, that's just the reality, exactly, and I think a lot of times we get caught up in, well, I shouldn't say this and that. No, that's a fact, that's a variable. Yeah, that is Whether now, the motivation behind what, the decision's where. That's different. I'm not talking about that. I'm in this looking at the cards that are on the table. If biological mom I mean if the doctor and mom had said you know what, we want you to find them, I want you to do X, y and Z prior to 2000 and I think he passed away, 2009. That would have been nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, four to five years of that dynamic. Now, at that time, biological mom might have been ready, you know what I'm saying. So it might have caused more damage.
Speaker 1:It could have caused more damage for sure.
Speaker 2:Who's to say that biological dad was ready? You know, I don't know what that aspect is, so I have to, at this point, reserve the right to say you know what, whatever it's supposed to be, and that's when I say if God wants that part to be revealed to you, you will see it before you take your last breath.
Speaker 1:Correct, correct. That's how I feel. When it comes to my biological father, I'm like, whether I do, whether I don't, I'm OK with it either way and I just put it in. If it's meant for me to find out who he is, then it will happen in due time. Right now, I keep hitting roadblocks.
Speaker 2:Did you do an SSD?
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely, I've done everything you can possibly do. Ok, I've done it, but as far as answering, I can only get to like second cousin and I've spoken to, communicated to cousins on my biological father's parental side and my biological father's paternal side, but I've only gotten to second cousin.
Speaker 1:So I haven't been able to bridge that gap yet. And just for what little bit I do know. I don't think we'll ever have his DNA anywhere because he was a roller stone. So hopefully, maybe again. If it's meant for me to know, I will know. But as of right now, I've been hitting roadblocks but I'm not like, oh, I've got to find it. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, I'm still at peace, there's so many other blessings in the journey.
Speaker 2:You don't have that one piece. It's not as devastating as still you want to know. Yeah, absolutely, you've been blessed in other regards. So, going back to Kirk Franklin, we talked about when he first got the call how he was sharing with people. We talked about when he first met his dad, when he gave him the envelope and shared yes, you are the father. How they had to take a second DNA test and then how the mom didn't want to acknowledge either DNA test. Talk to me about him and his son.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, yes that part. That right there, considering and I don't know how much of the background of him and his son, who have been estranged for some years. You know, I heard the call. Yeah, we all heard the call. That's true, that did go viral. So for that to happen I mean talking about healing right there the healing started closing up instantaneously.
Speaker 2:His son said that's my grandfather. He said that's all I need. That's all I need, that's all.
Speaker 2:I need and it's just like, as simple as it may sound, it was, so significant it was, and I think that for people to watch it being laid out, family dynamic is so powerful it is. You know what I'm saying? Because now you have three generations right there, right there, and I guarantee they have more common than they have not. Yes, then have not yes. So, as much as Kirk and his son were bumping heads, maybe the son was thinking, if I had a grandfather to go and talk to, kirk was probably saying if I had my father, it'd help me be a better father. Father, you know what I'm saying? Yes, it's just so many variables, but it just shows to me the power of a family bond, and you know what's funny?
Speaker 1:Well, it's not funny, but it's interesting that that tape went viral for that day, because you know why. That's how. Again, that's how God works, because that wouldn't have not happened.
Speaker 2:If it wasn't going to be this end result, the end result that had to happen, so that we could appreciate that moment that much more.
Speaker 1:Exactly, wow, exactly, it had to, and then the world saw it all. So if we didn't see the first part, yeah, Then we wouldn't have understood the significance of the second part Correct. Thank god for the year.
Speaker 2:Mind blowing, mind blowing, mind blowing. And you know it's, I think, with and we talked earlier how this generation and right now, everything is the information age and you know so it creates questions. Yeah, so now, when you have the dynamics of family and people are questioning well, how, who you got, ancestry, that are filling the gaps, even then when you don't want to talk about it, you know. So now you look, there's a platform of adoptees and adoption. You know, you have stories. They don't come out and say adoption, tracing your roots, Right, they indirectly come with it, but at the core, it's about a family that is non-traditional. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, and finally, we come from a non-traditional family.
Speaker 1:And speaking of non-traditional families. So just this past Sunday, kerry Washington came out with her book and she also, you know, spoke about her biological father as a sperm donor from a sperm bank. Wow, that's a whole different. That's different, right, and that's not even you know. They didn't tell us she was adopted or anything, because she wasn't adopted yeah, she wasn't, because she's even using the words I'm searching for my sperm donor, not, you know, my biological. She just said sperm donor.
Speaker 2:But I guess you know, and by all means that's her truth. I'm not taking away from, I'm just asking isn't he still the biological father? Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:I don't recall her saying biological father. I don't recall that. I remember her saying sperm donor because her mom said I went to a sperm bank.
Speaker 2:I wondered does she carry shame because of you know, it's just so rather.
Speaker 1:So she said that you know she's known for five years. Okay, and the only reason she knows is because again, there's a you know the show Finding your Roots. She was going to be on it, but you know, when you do your DNA and all that stuff, they track, they do a lot of well, she wanted to get ahead of it but you have to. Everybody that's in your circle, your parents have. Everybody has signed off on it. Oh, so they were like wait a minute.
Speaker 1:So so, um, this is, oh, Gates, that's his name. So he went to go speak to her parents because they have to sign off on it, and so the mom was like so, hypothetically, let's talk about this here. If someone you know went to a sperm bank, but that you know, would that make a difference? Yes, it's going to make a difference, it's.
Speaker 1:DNA. He was like yes, she said so. Well then, we're not signing off on this, we're not doing it. So I can't remember if he said you know my ass why I can't remember. But the next thing was, I think they said well, you know her, she was conceived by a sperm donor. And I think they asked her what do you think you know I should, we should do? He said you should tell her Right.
Speaker 1:Because, she's going to ask why we're not going forth in this, and that's why she's not. Because DNA don't lie, I don't care how you slice it, how you cut it, you can't change it. So that's why I don't understand Kirk Franklin's mom Like oh no, this is not your father. Are you stupid?
Speaker 2:Well, again, trauma, if she, you know, whatever decisions that she, the patterns of her. You know, true, you're right, and we're sitting on the other side of the equation. We are. We're not having gone through the trauma that she experienced.
Speaker 1:And she probably has had it in her head for 53 years that she believes it. That's her true. It's her truth, right? So I stand back and say, no, she's not stupid, right? But she's in her truth, and I don't know if she's ever going to reconcile with reality.
Speaker 2:If you don't reconcile with the fact that your child is sitting in front of you asking for years, and then they took the DNA twice, and then the man who is the father like he's just as calm and it's like look, hey, this is what it is. I'm here. Nobody that I saw was attacking her.
Speaker 1:No one no.
Speaker 2:It was. These are the cards that were dealt. Just acknowledge it.
Speaker 1:That's it.
Speaker 2:So all I need you to do but then she makes it better.
Speaker 1:Oh, what a relationship with my son.
Speaker 2:So maybe she felt like the father coming in would replace her.
Speaker 1:But she's been there for 20 years.
Speaker 2:And you're right. But maybe she thought that the father coming in would be in position and push her further away, because maybe the father Well, yeah, I think about it, the father is established, the father is, has appears to have a mentally stable situation. So maybe it's a reflection of well, if you're going to think, if you're going to get close to him, then I know I'm not going to get close because I don't know, but again she goes.
Speaker 1:So you're going to use this to not have a relationship with me. But my thing is why didn't you have a relationship with him for the past 20 years? Because I'm sure it wasn't that, because she's always been in his life, he's always known who she was, but she came in and out and out, in and out. She never stayed because that's when he was with a distant relative who was, I think, 80s, something like that, 60s, something like that, was very old.
Speaker 1:I just don't understand how you have a sister and obviously at least we know of two sisters and nobody wanted to help with the kid. I don't understand. Maybe you all were young, but once you got older y'all know what it's kid is, because apparently it was a distant relative. It was a relative. Help me understand. But he's trying to understand how I fall through the cracks, how I fall through the cracks, a baby fall through the cracks, end up with this one lady, this older, older lady that said, oh no, we're not going to let him go in the system, but then no one came back to get him because the auntie didn't look like she was hurting for money.
Speaker 2:They look like they've done pretty well, pretty well. I'm just saying that's just me looking from the outside and I just don't understand how they all but then again, if Deborah was on, whatever island she was on, maybe she pushed people away and they were like you know what, I ain't dealing with it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but even though you're not dealing with her, what about him? Who knows? I don't know. He's like he grew up by himself, which, on the flip side, I'm grateful that he grew up by himself, because we benefit from his, we're benefit from his. Unfortunately, we benefit from his pain.
Speaker 2:So you know, and I don't know if we can wrap up I'm thinking about how adoption has been portrayed in the media, right, because now they're talking about it, we're all you know, a big mental health standpoint. Yeah, so I can only think of two, ironically, sitcoms that addressed adoption, and they both were white. Families with a black child, different strokes and Webster, yeah, how you know that. That speaks volumes, and what it says to me is that the perception is that you can't, we can, we'll take care of it. You know, we have the fuck is. Both were financially stable. They were, you know what Papadopoulos was, a judge.
Speaker 1:So, yes, he had money, yeah, drumming was a businessman, Right.
Speaker 2:So this you know, we're going to go and we'll take care of it. I don't even remember how he, how he got Webster I don't know if it was. I'm going to have to look that up. We'll talk about that when we talk about media adoption.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But I was sitting here thinking about how it's portrayed and it creates this narrative because I remember Willis and I'm going back and they would meet their mom and Arnold really didn't know and you know that whole dynamic. But that's going to be a great episode, so make sure y'all tune in on this one. Yes, because yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's a lot of reality ones too. Now now Tom Cruise. Yeah, they adopted Angela Jolie, Sandra Bullock, they. So, yeah, you definitely we're going to. That's going to be a good one, even in the shot.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you watched the shot.
Speaker 1:I do not. We'll talk about that, that's okay. Okay, I'm a binge watcher queen so I can binge watch it real quick.
Speaker 2:I'm talking about six seasons. I'm going to season five, okay, but yeah, watch it. It's pretty awesome. Okay, all right. So, yeah, this has been a good episode and I think it goes to show the relevance of you know, these adoption stories and truths.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they, and with the technology of today they are starting to reveal themselves. Yeah, so I'm just saying some people may want to get ahead of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right. Go ahead and speak your truth Speak your truth now, wherever hold your peace. Hey, own it and it's okay, it's all right.
Speaker 1:It's all right, it's okay.
Speaker 2:So again we want to thank you all for just coming into our conversation and we hope that it makes you think and hope, we hope that it inspires you and we also hope that, if maybe you're not the adoptee, but you know somebody and it gives you a better understanding into their thought process. So on that note, I'm John and I'm Lisa. And so I'm adopted.
Speaker 1:We're adopted, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2:See you next time yeah.